Article on Colt 400 mag?
SPB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 08:43 (1641 days ago)
I'm a .400 fan. The .401 Herter's could
WB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 10:01 (1641 days ago) @ SPB
be easily resurrected. It is more perfectly situated between the .357 and .41 magnum that the .41 is too close to the .43 Remington Magnum. (not a typo)
With bullets ranging from 135 to 230 gr. they work great. I make .401" bullets by lubing .410" and passing them through a LEE push through die. Works fine on any lead core projectile. The Sierra .41's to .401's are particularly nifty, 170 and 210 gr. JHC.
Gary has his .401 GNR that is a .44 Magnum Necked to .400. This is a good solution as you won't blow up your .38-40 and no fuss with making the .401 Herter's brass from another. I mostly use .41 Mag cases with the "belt" left by the sizer turned off in a lathe. You cannot size this part off, it's the solid web. I like to think of it as the .410 GNR "lite" as it does about 85% of what that wonderful round will do. 44 Mag. brass is easy to find and lasts a long time.
Also .40 S&W will shoot wonderfully in the revolver and gives perfect .41 Special performance. The 10mm is fantastic and does better in the wheelgun that semi-auto for me. It's just a little shorter than the .401 Herters and rimless. I have not had any issues at all with bullet pull in recoil.
.400 options are out there, you just have to be a little creative.
The .40 S&W cases were loaded with ancient Lyman 170 gr. SWCHP at 1100 fps, the .401 cases sport 155 gr. 10mm bullets with a cannuler added for fun and go 1600 fps. Recoil is snappy but about the same as a warm .44 Special in my #5 Reeder.
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GORDON BOSER
JT
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 10:17 (1641 days ago) @ WB
Cordially, Gordon Boser
Campfire Tales by John Taffin
More than 50 years ago I volunteered to clean out a widow lady’s basement. I took several pik-up loads of trash to the dump, however in the process I struck gold. Her husband had been a shooter and Life Member of the NRA and among all the junk which had accumulated for decades in that basement I also found more than 30 years of the American Rifleman. I spent many hours going through those old magazines and clipping and filing articles which I found of great interest to me.
Those years covered Elmer Keith’s first sixgun article as well as many which followed over the ensuing decades. The April 1929 issue had his “The Last Word” article in which he described what would become known as is #5 SAA, a totally custom .44 Special Colt Single Action. They were also his articles covering why he switched from the .45 Colt to the .44 Special as well as the custom sixguns of Harold Croft which sent Keith down the path to his #5.
Looking through my gold strike I also found three excellent in-depth .44 Special articles by one John Zlatich, Maj. Hatcher’s first report on the then new .44 Magnum, several soul-stirring articles by Walter Rodgers, and information on the .401 Special. During the time between the two world wars and shortly thereafter several men had worked with wildcat cartridges. My friend the late John Lachuk designed and had Colt Single Actions fitted with special cylinders to handle his .44 Lancer which turned out to be a dead ringer for the .44 Magnum which later arrived. Gordon Boser is known for his work with the .40 sixgun cartridge which was definitely in the Magnum category.
A few weeks ago I received a packet of information from one of our readers. As so often happens this proved to be a gold mine of information. One of the things he sent along was a copy of a handwritten letter written to his father and dating back 70 years. The letter was from Gordon Boser and is here in re-printed for posterity. Boser was a gunsmith and wildcatter sixgun-style dating back to the 1940s. One major warning as you read this letter DO NOT even consider using some of the .44 Special loads he refers to. Here is the reproduced letter:
“Springville N.Y.
February 4, 1949
Dear Sir:
Your letter of the 10th at hand and note your comment on #5066 as used in the .45 Colt Long Ctg. I assume that you might go as high as 8.3 grains of this powder with #454424 bullet, and this would be the equivalent of 8.5 grains of #5. I used the .45 Colt very much in years gone by and found it extremely accurate, but not as good a killer when handloaded as the .44 Special. Although it is superior to the .44 in factory loads. I recall using the WRA .45/60-300 grain bullet ahead of as much as 8.5 grains Unique and a (Tested) velocity of 850 fps and this was a very powerful load. Still it lacks the power of the .44 Special with the Thompson Gas Check 225 grain #431225 hollowpoint backed by 20.5 grains #2400.
That .401 you mentioned is still at hand and is the most powerful arm of the short gun type I ever seen. It beats the .357 Magnum by 30% and my best .44 Special Safe Load as well. Using the Boser #403185-192 grain solid, 1-15 bullet ahead of 19.0 grains #2400. This bullet makes a dent in a 1/4” steel plate. That makes the top .357, .44 Special, or .45 Colt loads looks sick.
It’s quite a long story. All of the changes wrought in the old Single Action Army, non-breakable action etc., stronger parts, the development of more than 500 loads, all new dies, duplex and straight charges and many bullets over a period of 10 years. I used the WRA .401 rifle cases and had to build a jig to cut them off to 1-1/4”length. I built molds for experimenting and finally adopted a 200 grain, wide hollowpoint and 18.5 grains #2400 as the top chuck, deer, and fox load.
I used a .38-40 Colt Single Action Army 5-1/2” barrel with a groove diameter of .402”. The cylinder was a Colt SAA .357 Magnum cylinder chambered for this case with bullet throats of .404” and sized my bullets .403”. I also worked over .303 Savage cases with a great deal of cutting, reaming and sizing. The heavy bushing etc. making the arm adequate for the high pressures, were built over a great period of time as the need became apparent. I also had to have loading tools made up for the cause.
I would say that even if one could get a barrel and cylinder, which cannot be done in view of the fact the old SAA is gone for good. It wouldn’t be worth the trouble. I say this because soon S & W will bring out their Model 1926 .44 Special and for this you can get the Remington non-cannelured cases and load a .44 Special load of 21.5 grains of #2400 behind the Keith #429421 or 20.5 grains behind the Thompson #431225 HPGC or as much as 22.0 grains behind the Thompson-Boser #431205 hollowpoint. That is good enough for anything you will ever use a pistol on. This too, would eliminate all the trouble and expense of building up a .401.
The .44 Special loads mentioned above should be attempted only by the most experienced handloader and start at least 2.0 grains below the above-mentioned charges and work up. Only new select cases should be used, bullet sized .001” over groove diameter.
I suggest you write Ray Thompson, Box 216, Grand Marais Minnesota mentioning my name and asking for samples of those gas check, hollowpoint bullets. These are the most advanced design obtainable and they eliminate leading, and incidentally uniform velocities and pressures result. The designs as a whole are conducive to the finest accuracy and full killing power.
Thanking you for your letter and inviting your further communication in case I can help you.
I am cordially
Gordon Boser”
This letter is definitely a gold mine of sixgun information, however again I caution DO NOT follow his recommendations for loading the .44 Special. When this was written .44 Special cases were of the balloon-head or folded-head variety which had more case capacity than today’s solid had brass. However, you will notice his loads are above Elmer Keith’s Heavy .44 Special loads when using this older brass. Keith used 18.5 grains under his #429421 bullet which is three grains less than that recommended by Boser. When solid head brass appeared in the early 1950s Keith cut his charge to 17.0 grains.
Boser also mentions the return of the .44 Special S&W Model 1926 in this letter from 1949. A very few 1926 Models were made after WWII, however just one year later the finest double action .44 Special sixgun ever produced arrived as the S&W 1950 Target. This sixgun was used as the platform for the .44 Magnum, however it took special heat treating and a longer cartridge case to handle loads close to those mentioned by Boser in this letter.
Boser designed a special bullet, Lyman #401452 for his .401 Special. This bullet weighs just under 200 grains with my alloy. It is a semi-wadcutter design as it was and is Keith’s #429421. I use Boser’s .401 bullet in the .38-40 today. In the early 1960s the then well-known mail-order, Herter’s, brought out there .401 Powermag, a single action sixgun produced in Germany. This was a bull strong revolver also offered in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum, and was also very close in performance and design to Boser’s .401 Special. He also designed a .44 Special bullet, Lyman #429360. I have found this bullet to not be as accurate as the Keith bullet.I also noted the high praise Boser paid to Ray Thompson’s bullet designs. I concur totally. His gas checked bullets are still some of the best available for .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, and .45 Auto Rim.
Magnum sixgun cartridges did not just appear out of the blue. Before the .357 Magnum there was Keith’s Heavy .38 loads and he also spent nearly 30 years pushing his Heavy .44 Special loads. We have also mentioned John Lachuk’s .44 Lancer and Boser’s .401 as well and there was Pop Eimer’s earlier version all of which laid the groundwork for the .44 Magnum and .41 Magnum.
BOSER'S .401 IBULLET IN .38-40 & 10MM
JT
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 10:31 (1641 days ago) @ JT
.400
Alcorn
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 21:25 (1640 days ago) @ JT
I have a buckeye special Blackhawk in 38-40 and 10mm auto. I sent it to gary and had a 3rd cylinder made in 401 GNR. What a great shooter! Then there is the king of 1911 autos 40 super, 200gr bullet at 1400 fps.
I kinda wish the .400 came to pass as the
Lynn
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 10:46 (1641 days ago) @ SPB
.410 and the .429 are too close together
BUT .010" MAKES THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE?
JT
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 11:24 (1641 days ago) @ Lynn
- No text -
There could be a small argument of penetration
WB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 11:57 (1641 days ago) @ JT
I suppose. Sectional density calculations and all. But not until you begin to look at .357 class weight projectiles then run the scale up to .41 Magnum size do you see the great versatility that the small difference makes and can exploit. It will be forever lost on mainstream shooters. Unless the idea is brought to new light. I think a new generation of 6.5, black guns forever, minded shooters will poo-pooh the notion all over again. It has to be profitable to be successful. That's just the fact.
Can the .400 Magnum be a better .357 AND an adequate .44 class? Mine seems to be. A 230 gr. FNGC .400 at 1400 fps is pretty serious as to penetration. (I'd not tell in mixed company but I got my 10mm 6" Glock to run that bullet 1200 fps)
only 2 1/2 % difference in frontal area. Would need
Southern Boy
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 14:59 (1641 days ago) @ JT
a hefty difference in length/weight to show much difference.
Which is better .264, .270, 7mm, .30?
WB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 15:30 (1641 days ago) @ Southern Boy
It’s what makes the world go around.
I vote the 36x26x36.
Southern Boy
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 15:47 (1641 days ago) @ WB
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It's the one that you have the most personal confidence in
Jim Taylor
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 16:05 (1641 days ago) @ WB
and has very little to do with anything else. If you feel it works the best for you and that you shoot it the best, it'll work for you pretty well.
In my research it seems about 1960
WB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 11:34 (1641 days ago) @ Lynn
or a couple years earlier George Herter hit the nail on the head. Maybe he just got lucky. He was a pushy salesman, and good one. He just didn't jive with the "system" big boys. But George being savvy contracted Norma to make the .401 Herter's ammo and Sauer to make the Revolvers. In all pretty good guns except the lead bullets leaded badly at 1500 fps! The Big Boys were not going to have any of that from an amateur and pushed forth the .41 Peace Officer's dream cartridge with many heavy hitter's endorsement. Keith was only one highly vocal enthusiast. I'm POSITIVE he'd not gel with George Herter, ever character wise.
So they pushed Herter and the .401 round out. It would have been so easy to cut a deal and just start making guns and ammo. The .308 and .358 Norma Magnums also died a like death. Both fantastic rounds.
This is my .401 Herter's with the Gary Reeder .38-40 cylinder and some experimental shotshells.
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Lee Martin is well known on here and respected by
Gary Reeder
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 10:48 (1641 days ago) @ SPB
as many but he sure turned me off with his statement..
"or the nearly defunct 10mm Auto." I didn't even read any further than that silly ass comment.
That was a bit flippant but a good while back
WB
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 11:22 (1641 days ago) @ Gary Reeder
about the time guys were battering the whizz out of tired Delta Elites there was a little mainstream wane. It sure has picked up considerably. The 10 is here to stay. We love it in the revolvers too. It only took true commitment from shooters, gun makers, and ammo companies all working together. Money makes it all work.
I read a remark that you could mash a case flush with a FL sizer die body and hammer it back out to size "all" of the case. That is BS and not gonna work. That's why I was forced to lathe cut the non-sized solid web portion that the shell holder prevents from entering the die. It would get stuck anyway.
HE MAY HAVE WRITTEN THAT BEFORE
JT
[subject]
Monday, February 07, 2022, 11:22 (1641 days ago) @ Gary Reeder
THE 10MM BEGAN ITS RESURRECTION.
Martin's article dated
Burban
[subject]
Tuesday, February 08, 2022, 09:26 (1640 days ago) @ JT
His article was written no later than November 2016.
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