It Starts in 1935 by Paco Kelly

Jim Taylor
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 09:11 (1582 days ago)

(the was written by Paco back around 1998 or so)

Up until the year 1935 the word "magnum" was used primarily with Champaign bottles that were larger than the normal quart sized.  That year Smith & Wesson brought out the first handgun cartridge called a magnum, because of it's larger shell casing.  The .357 magnum was really just the .38 Special elongated by a tenth of an inch.......but it was the pressure difference that made the new cartridge.  When in 1930 Smith & Wesson upgraded the .38 Special to the .38/44 they used the same cartridge case as the Special but jumped the pressure to around 20,000 to 25,000 psi. The ammo boxed were marked "To be used in .38/44 handguns only" (fixed-sighted, heavy-frame 44/45 frame revolvers).  A year or so later the .38/44 Outdoorsman came on the scene.  It was basically the same heavy-frame gun but with adjustable sights.

From 1930 through to the beginning of 1935, the development of the .357 was underway.    Doug Wesson (the head of S&W) felt the .38/44 was good but more would be better.  To keep the .357 case from being accidentally fired in a .38 Special handgun the case was lengthened so they wouldn't chamber. 

And the pressure of the new round was in the 40,000 plus psi levels.  Even at it's incredibly expensive $60 per copy it sold well.  The .38/44 Outdoorsman was $45 at the time and that was considered expensive for the Depression era 1930's.  For the years 1935 through 1940, Roy Jinks (the S&W Historian) states 6642 S&W handguns in .357 were sold.  More than 1200 a year. Not bad for the times and price.

The Second World War stopped production in 1940.  In 1950 when production and sales started again almost 3600 guns were sold in that one year.  And the .357 magnum has sold .... and sold well .... every year since then.  It has been chambered in many manufacturers guns and sold in hundred of styles and models.

Doug Wesson gave Phil Sharpe the credit for the lions share of the .357's development.    Elmer Keith has stated that he also contributed to it's development and he did, in a limited way.  He sent Wesson a large number of his cast bullets that he designed. (Lyman still makes the mold)  And he sent the loading data he was using in .38 Special cases in the .38/44 revolvers.  He states in his book SIXGUNS that the load was 11 gr. of  Number 80 powder. (now long obsolete)  Keith also points out that this load wrecked many small-framed .38 Specials.

As Elmer himself tells it, Winchester told Wesson that the load data of Keith's generated over 40,000 psi which they thought was crazy.  Eventually Winchester backed away from the project.  But...Remington picked up where they left off.  And when 2400 powder was finally developed it was used in the .357.  Approximately 15.8 gr. of it.   I have read a number of different experts who state that it was 15 gr., but the point amount fluctuates from .2 to .8 grains, depending on who you read.  I get 15.8 gr. from a WRA .357 magnum cartridge I opened and weighed.  It was a factory load from the late 1930's.  The velocity of those WRA cartridges were well over 1500 fps.....knocking out speculation that the original loadings in .357 did not get as high velocity as the advertising stated.  The advertising stated 1510 fps and the original loads were above that.
So the .357 ads were not hoopla but truth.  And the load data that Keith gave them (that generated "so much" pressure) was the pressure they had to go to anyway.    They could have saved themselves money and years of development and testing if they had listened to Keith from the start.

The interesting fact here is that Keith was using 40,000 psi pressure in the .38/44 handguns for years.  And never had a problem with the guns not being able to handle it, and then some.  But when S&W brought out the .357 magnum handgun they said it had to have special steel and special heat-treating and a lot of other statements about the uniqueness of the gun's structure over the other handguns.  Chances are that other than cosmetic changes in the .38/44 specs, and a .357 magnum length chamber.....both guns were made of the same steel and had the same heat-treatment.

Like is stated by many knowledgeable gun folks, there are better caliber's to hunt with for big game.  But if the .357 mag is NOT powerful enough for soft animals 200 pounds or so down .... then how can the experts recommend the .357 for Law Enforcement?     Some of the criminals I've run into over my career were much bigger, far stronger, very hard, downright nasty, and much more aggressive than any poor soft-bodied deer-sized game.

Lets give that whole line of thinking a rest.  Either it is or it isn't.......it cannot be one and not the other.  Of seventeen shootings I was involved (either personally or in an investigative capacity) where the .357 was used, I would have to say it is well capable of handling living creatures of 200 pounds and above.  Especially when you consider police-type guns usually have 4 inch barrels or less.  And the trend today is to use even less powerful ammo and caliber's like the various 9mm's.    And they incapacitate nasty criminals every day.

Hunting handguns usually have six inch or better barrels and heavy hunting loads, unlike some police guns and loads. Practice, the right bullet, the right load, the right gun and the right sights are the keys. We do the hunting public (those that can't handle the big .40 plus magnum caliber's) a disservice by not explaining how to, and what to use, with the .357 to hunt.  There are folks out there that are going to hunt with the .357 no matter what we say.  No....we should be in the business of guiding them and giving them knowledge to make them and their firearm effective.

The big Rugers, Taurus, S&W's and other strongly made handguns should be the ones recommended for hunting.  And it should be carefully explained that the smaller and lighter .357's are for personal defense and police work. 

Information on what loads are effective, what bullets work well, and what the limit is on distances should be made accessible to those who choose to hunt with the .357 magnum.  Exactly like is done with the larger caliber's.

I have read horror stories of how deer and black bear were not stopped with .357's. Like the famous story of one writer who shot a black bear at point-blank range several times without stopping it.  He blamed the .357 that he used.  But when you find out his load data a different story emerges.  His load was a 158 gr. cast bullet at 1100 fps - a warm .38 Special defense load!   That is not a .357 hunting load!  

And that is my point.  My coyote load alone is a 170 gr. or more cast load at near 1500 fps.  My deer load today uses a Hornady 180 gr. XTP at over 1400 fps.  I keep my hunting range at 50 to 75 yards.    Hunting loads, .357 magnum pressures, in hunting handguns.....not a .38 +P defense load.

The lowering of pressures and the smaller defensive handguns in .357 have been a great added plus to personal safety, but a detriment in the hunting field.  When we hunt with the .357 let's use a real .357 magnum gun and load.

Thanks for the read.

Sid R
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 10:25 (1582 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

This is the reason my Dan Wesson is at my hip. I only have hunting loads, it works for everything.

Thanks Jim Taylor

Randy
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 11:13 (1582 days ago) @ Sid R

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I have used the 357

Ed
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 16:03 (1582 days ago) @ Randy

several times in Tennessee on the game they have there. I shot the first hog 5 times before it fell. I learned from that mistake to use much better bullets. I also fell into the 158 XTP trap and also had a charging hog that I was not doing a very good job on. I asked a couple of questions and I found that I was using the totally wrong bullet for hunting. Seems the 125 and 158 gr. Bullets are designed to not go through a man. The thinking I assume is to prevent the bullet from traveling on through the intended target and hitting someone else beyond that target. This is what I was told concerning the caliber being used for law enforcement. Hunting wants much better penetration with much tougher and heavier bullets. I had great kills with the 180 and up bullets. Switch to the best heavy bullets and drive them as fast as you or the gun can handle. I do think that the bigger bores are also better for any heavy game. But the bullets also need to match. Look at what Gary and the men used in Africa. No toys to get the job done. Hunting is hunting and law enforcement is something different. I think the same is true with the rifle and the bullets you use in it.

The 158 gr. solid .. not hollowpoint ...

Jim Taylor
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 17:23 (1582 days ago) @ Ed

1935
Major Douglas Wesson - using factory loaded 158 gr. bullets in an 8 3/4" S&W .357 sixgun.

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

I don't care for hollow points at all in any caliber. I have

Gary Reeder
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 11:49 (1581 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

used the silhouette bullets on hundreds of large game in my 41 GNR and in most cases, if I do my part, it is a one shot kill. The silhouette bullet is almost a FMJ bullet with a little lead exposed at the nose. Even on large game, 1500 to 2000 lbs it seldom opens up to more that the normal 41 caliber. Unfortunately the 3 companies that made silhouette bullets, Hornady, Sierra and Speer, make very few of these bullets these days.
the silhouette bullet in 44 caliber
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210 grain 41 caliber silhouette bullet
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The Speer silhouette bullet is actually an FMJ bullet and not for hunting.
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With silhouette matches pretty much a thing of the past the bullet manufacturers either dropped that bullet or changed the name. Sierra now calls the silhouette bullet the Tournament Master bullet, in 357, 41 and 44 calibers.
Should you not be able to find these bullets check on Kelye Schlepp's Punch bullet. It is a lead core solid that is just as good as the silhouette bullet. And don't be fooled by another company's Punch bullet as the name was "borrowed" from Kelye and that bullet is not anywhere as good as the one Kelye designed. Here is the 357, 44 and 510 caliber Punch bullet.
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Kelye developed that bullet in several different calibers up to .510 caliber which I have used on bison in my 510 GNR.
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They have a lead core so are illegal in communist states.
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To get some of the real, original Punch bullets, Kelye has a fax number that you can reach him at, which is 406-388-1396.

on larger game a good jacketed soft point is a good one too.

Gary Reeder
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 12:53 (1581 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

I have used the old Hornady 44 caliber 265 grain JSP on bison and other like size animals here in the states and in Africa and Australia.
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I have found that JHP bullets on large game will often fragment and lose their momentum when hitting large bones, whereas a soft point's nose will often flatten out but still continue to do considerable internal damage.
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Before my 2018 Cape Buffalo hunt I talked at length with my PH John Abraham about solids or soft points. I asked him about the old stories about solids turning into bent bullets and not going deep enough to put the animal down properly. He laughed and said that does happen but usually with hunters that don't know where to place a bullet. He said on an elephant a shot on the point of the shoulder bone will cause the bullet to veer off and actually bend a solid bullet. He said only a PH that is scared or doesn't know what he is doing will have that happen. Putting the bullet in the right spot will do much more damage and the bullet will normally stay together and go much deeper and at a straight line.

I was surprised when my African PH John Abraham told me to load the Hornady DGX, Dangerous Game Expanding, rather than the DGS, Dangerous Game Solid, for my first Cape Buffalo. But he was right as the first bullet in my 450 GNR at about 45 yards put the buffalo on his knees and the second one finished it. The soft nose flattened a bit and continued doing damage to the buffalo.
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The Buffalo was quartering toward me and the 500 grain bullet hit him at an angle from the front shoulder back toward the off side hip. The bullet hole can be seen as a tapered hole going in at an angle. It broke the shoulder joint and did a lot of internal damage.
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On my recent Cape Buffalo hunt my guns and gear were stolen in Qatar so I borrowed a Freedom Arms revolver from Michael Mendes that was loaded with 300 grain soft points at a hot 45 Long Colt load. The buff was hit at around 25 yards and the first soft point broke the front shoulder, the second shot hit just above that spot and blew up both lungs. The 2 shots were all that was needed. The buff didn't go 5 feet after the second shot.
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Here is one of the recovered bullets. The soft nose was gone but the bullet was still together.
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On my lion hunt in South Africa this past fall I used some 350 grain jacketed soft point bullets in my 510 GNR revolver and they did a great job on a 500 lb lion. Here are 3 of my 4 510 GNR shots.
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A couple of years ago my wife Collen hit a bear on the way home from work. She was within about 2 miles from the house when she hit the bear in her truck. She called me at home and told me the bear was walking around the side of the road, hurt but not hurt bad. I got there in about 5 minutes and all I had on me was my Star PD 45 ACP with jacketed hollow points. I walked up to maybe 5 feet from the bear and hit him on point of shoulder with the 45 JHP. No sign of a hit at all. I hit him twice more just behind the shoulder and the bear flinched but didn't show any other sign of the hit. Colleen had called the hiway patrol when she called me and he had arrived about the time I was shooting the bear. The young hiway patrol officer was excited and ran back to his vehicle and got his AR-15. He came up to me and asked me if I wanted him to shoot the bear. I told him sure, I wasn't doing the bear any damage. The young officer shot the bear in the side of the head and ended it. While we were talking I cut the bear's hide open and all 3 of my JHP bullets were maybe 2 inches into the bear. None had reached any vitals and all had opened up on the hide and fat just under the hide. In that instance jacketed hollow points had failed miserably.
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After that I pulled all hollow points out of my carry guns and replaced them with FMJs. I will never use a hollow point on man nor beast again.

Needless to say I am sold on either silhouette type bullets or jacketed soft point bullets, for me, they work. You can keep your hollow points.

classic....

james
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 19:17 (1582 days ago) @ Ed

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that black bear story sounds like one Bob milek told

Lynn
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 10:30 (1582 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

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I THINK MILEK

JT
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 10:41 (1582 days ago) @ Lynn

Was using hollowpoint, I think 125 grain 357 Magnums in a Python. Failed on a smallish black bear.

Joe Nava

Ray
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 10:40 (1582 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

Joe was a game biologist in Alaska for many years and encountered many big game animals during that time, some of which he shot. He says he used a 44 Magnum a time or two but didn't like the recoil so he stayed with his Colt Python and other revolvers chambered in 357 Magnum. This was the caliber he chose to carry with him because he knew he could put the bullets where he wanted, and he used head shots to kill at least one of every big game animal in Alaska, with the exception of walrus.

Paco Kelly

Gary Reeder
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Wednesday, April 06, 2022, 15:03 (1582 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

I have seen this photo before and am sure there

Mark Wilson
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 13:41 (1581 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

has to be a story behind the purple hat.

the story I would like to hear is how Paco was shot

Gary Reeder
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 14:22 (1581 days ago) @ Mark Wilson

several times in the back with a 44 magnum.

I would like to hear that one as well.

Mark Wilson
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 16:11 (1581 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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cleaning his revolver?

charlie A.
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Thursday, April 07, 2022, 16:59 (1581 days ago) @ Gary Reeder

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