Why I prefer Hardball in my .45 ACP

Jim Taylor
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 07:45 (2633 days ago)

DANGEROUS GAME vs. DANGEROUS HUMANS

Before you read this please understand that No One has to agree with me. I am not trying to gain a following or tell people what to use. This is MY opinion and I am simply sharing what and why I use what I use.

"Karamojo" Bell set the standard for dangerous game when he wrote: "A bullet that breaks up is worse than worthless. Penetration is what counts. A bullet that cannot reach the vitals it is aimed at, no matter what the intervening tissue and bone, not only does not kill quickly and reliably but vastly compounds the element of danger to the hunter. A wounded animal is ten times more likely to kill or injure the shooter than an unharmed one. The answer for dangerous game, especially thick-skinned, heavily boned species, is the "solid" bullet precisely placed from a rifle of sufficient caliber to provide the power needed to penetrate, but not so heavy as to be awkward or overpowered."

Bell's idea was to combine the knowledge of anatomy with precise bullet placement, using a "solid" bullet of sufficient power to reach that part of the animal that would bring a quick, decisive death.

Thinking of this while reading some articles on why a person should never use "hardball" ammunition for self-defense, I was struck by the logic of some of the writers in gun magazines. Often their reasoning was like this: "If I was shooting a bear or other dangerous game, yes, I would use hardball. But not for self-defense against a person."

My reaction was "WHAT!?"

I was amazed that their thinking seemed to be that humans are less dangerous than animals. Now I am no expert but for as long as I have walked this planet I have met a whole lot more dangerous humans than I have dangerous animals.

Most all of the writers sing the same song. "Use a bullet that will expend it's whole energy in the target and stop in the target." or words to that effect. To me, such talk is about as ignorant of how and what bullets do in living tissue as can be. For one thing, bullets don't have "energy" in the literal sense of foot-pounds of energy. The definition of "foot-pounds" is the amount of energy required to lift one pound one foot. Hang a twenty pound log on a rope 4 or 5 feet long. Shoot into it with your 9mm using the 124 gr. FMJ ammo which is rated at 324 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. I don't care how close you get to the muzzle, your shot will not swing the log one foot.. If it actually produced 324 foot-pounds of energy it would knock that log flying .... and break your wrist when it went off. Your .44 Magnum won't move the log very far either. Quite frankly, neither will a .300 Winchester Magnum rifle. Bullets don't have that kind of energy.

I sometimes wonder if these "experts" have ever shot anything that was living and breathing at the time.

But what about "over penetration"?

I want more penetration than I need, not less. If I put a hole in something I would rather have a hole going out if possible. Wouldn't that endanger innocent bystanders? Yes. It certainly could. And no one wants to injure or kill innocent people. But rarely does one have the option of choosing when and where to shoot in a self-defense situation. If it is truly a life or death situation requiring the use of deadly force, the blame for innocents being harmed is laid upon the person who committed a crime that resulted in the use of force. (Check your local use of deadly force statutes.)

It should also be mentioned that the majority of shots fired in self-defense .. as recorded by records of Police shootings ... miss their intended target entirely. To me a missed shot is pretty deadly. I mean, if it will stop in the body of a bad guy, but the bad guy is missed, it will easily stop in the body of an innocent. As far as I am concerned, the over-pentration argument is just writers hype. They have to sell articles.

I want a load that will penetrate to the vitals no matter the angle that I am shooting, or how large the intended target is, or what the target may be clothed with. Some of those fancy hollowpoints may not even reach the body if it is winter and the person is dressed for very cold weather and weighs in excess of 300 pounds. While that bullet may penetrate 12 inches of jello and then stop, shooting a large fat bad guy dressed for 10 below zero just might not do anything but piss him off.

The other side of the problem is this: often hollowpoint bullets fired through clothing tend to "plug" the hollow point and the bullet acts just like a solid hardball. There is a lot of empirical evidence to verify this.

And last, hardball does not give feeding problems that some large-cavity hollowpoint bullets can. The gun just runs better with hardball. I prefer reliability over problems getting some fancy bullet to feed properly. I want that firearm to operate properly and reliably first and foremost. So no thanks. I will use my old hardball .45 ACP thank you. The whole reason it was designed was to stop large aggressive attackers and it will still do that IF the shooter does his or her part.

And THAT is the key to everything. Precise placement of the shot. Something that is pretty near impossible to do when your life is on the line. But it was something hunters of dangerous game (and those who hunted dangerous men) learned. It is something that those of us who carry need to learn.

answers


Thomas Peterson
8:31 PM (10 hours ago)
to me
Like you say it is just my opinion, but here goes. I totally agree with you about carrying hard ball in the 1911 type guns. For one, it is proven. From the Philippians, to today it just works. Secondly, I would much rather have reliability in a gun fight, than a hollow point that might or might not work. I have read numerous, documented police gun fights where hollow point bullets did not expand, at all. Over penetration is possibly a concern for police departments, especially with the .357 or .357 Sig, both of which will almost always over penetrate with ball ammo. For all the rest of us two holes are probably better than one.

I've always known the same truth.

Rsim
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 08:19 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

Hard lead in Africa works, MBW heat treated, BHN 22, the last trip killed 10 game animals, some elk size, with 14 shots out of a 41GNR#2 carbine (240gr.).

If I ever have to shoot a human, same thing applies, 9mm hardball penetrates, maybe bullet shape, whatever, it works.

My $.02

I think smaller autos it’s even more important

WB
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 10:11 (2633 days ago) @ Rsim

On hogs I always use flat nosed cast bullets. However 9mm and .380 I carry Hornady JHP with plastic in the nose. .25 and .32 for sure expansion is doubtful, but some special considerations to over penetration might crop up. Reliability trumps all that though. Even .38 Spec. Snubs I often simply use full wadcutters. Can’t get more frontal area than that. Snubs don’t expand bullets much anyway. Thin skinned critters or speeds over 1000 FPS I like jacketed and can certainly find uses. Another round I like and would like to see more mainstream is the 9.3x18 MAK. The bullet is a bit more than a round ball. You can get barrels to convert little .380 Rugers, that might be cool. They made a few for Glock .380’s too. I’d prefer one purpose built.

What about that new fluted ammo?! Cool!

WB
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 10:13 (2633 days ago) @ WB

- No text -

Flat point

Brent Clark
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 11:11 (2633 days ago) @ WB

Right or wrong, in my wife’s .380 we stagger flat point and hollow points. I’ve become more of a believer in flat points. Gary’s .22 tool is a prime example. I’ve tested on prairie dogs and fp performs much better than hp. Just bought some plated flat points for .45 acp. Haven’t loaded them yet but maybe they’re an option.

All I can add is

james
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 11:25 (2633 days ago) @ Brent Clark

that my Series 70 Colt magazine is loaded with Nosler`s 230gr FMJ-FN to give reliable feeding and a smidge more smack on the recieving end. Otherwise if I did not have the jacketed flat points the gun would be loaded with full metal jacket round nose... Reliability with semi auto`s is number one with me. That`s why I prefer revolvers..

I would think "cool" but no better than ball

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 13:57 (2633 days ago) @ WB

ammo but twice the price.

Hey Jim,

IC
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 09:49 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

I agree completely. If I have to stop someone, ballistics, foot pounds, penetration, etc. is not what's going thru my mind at the time. Solving the problem is.

I WONDER HOW BAD GUYS

JT
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 10:21 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

WHERE EVER STOPPED WHEN ALL WE HAD WAS ROUND BALLS,FLAT-NOSED .44-40 AND .45 COLT, AND .45 HARDBALL.

It's big mystery John. :) ....

Jim Taylor
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 10:28 (2633 days ago) @ JT

- No text -

a good friend who ran the emergency room at a hospital in

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 12:48 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

Florida explained it to me this way. He was talking from experience from seeing dozens of gunshot wounded people come into the ER. He said a person gets hit somewhere in center mass. he looks down and sees all the blood and thinks "oh God I am going to die" and goes into shock and dies, and the bullet wound was not even a mortal one.

John asked about all the old gunfights. I have no way of knowing but probably the old gunfights in the saloons in the west where a person gets hit with a lead slug from a 44-40, 45 Long Colt, 38-40 etc, the person hit goes into shock and dies from a non mortal wound. At least those are my thoughts. My opinion and $11.25 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Makes all kinds of sense Jim

Jk
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 11:18 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

Your post will be my mantra!

"They all fall to hardball"

AKRay
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 11:20 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

This saying is often repeated when discussing the 45 ACP. Bill Allard of the NYPD Stakeout Squad used a Colt National Match 1911 in 45 ACP in many of his shootings and he chose it because he wanted a round that would penetrate to the bad guy's vitals and end the fight more quickly. I don't remember if he used hollowpoint or hardball ammunition but he ended the careers of many violent armed robbers with an adequate round and precise shot placement.

sometimes we tend to believe the "all knowing" ballistic

Gary Reeder
[subject]
Saturday, June 15, 2019, 12:42 (2633 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

experts in the gun magazines. And I guess I have been in that crowd too, at least until this past week. My 3 shots on that bear told me a lot. I hit him with 2 JHPs and 1 hardball out of my 45 PD. No reaction at all to the JHPs and after he was down we saw that both were just behind the front leg. The 3rd (which was actually the 2nd shot on the bear) was the hardball. At that the bear stood up on his hind legs at started snapping at his shoulder where the bullet hit. And the JHPs failure wasn't because of the distance as I was less than 8 feet from the bear when I shot him. The failure was the JHPs just simply didn't get thru the heavy fur of the bear (he still had his winter coat) and the inch or so of fat on him.

I sorta feel silly now making sure that Colleen was off to one side thinking the bullets might fully penetrate the bear and hit her. She was maybe 40 feet or so off to my side so I know now I didn't have to worry about over penetration. After it was all over I realized I had absolutely no worry about over penetration as the JHPs didn't penetrate over 2 inches. We couldn't tell on the hardball as it was in the bears vitals somewhere.

Due to reading so many articles on the "great" JHPs on the market I guess I just rolled with the flow and took that ballistic bullshit as true. I really never have expounded on the merits of a JHP round and now I will never do so. Sometimes it takes something drastic to teach us a lesson. And that bear taught me a lot. When I got home and reloaded my 45, I put 7 rounds of hardball ammo in it.

I feel guilty now that I fell for all the "energy" crap like Jim mentioned even though I have known better for many years. There is no such thing as energy. It is a false number that means nothing. If the bullet had enough energy to knock an animal down or the bad guy down, it would also knock the shooter down. Simply physics. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If it knocks the bear down it will knock me down too, if you believe in energy.

So I owe that bear a bit of gratitude. It may never matter and I hope the situation never comes up where I have to prove it on a human being but Mr. Bear may have just saved my ass.

.45 acp Hardball

stonecold
[subject]
Sunday, June 16, 2019, 10:22 (2632 days ago) @ Jim Taylor

A good post. I agree with your thoughts Jim. .45 hardball has an enviable record for stopping humans attacking. Reliability is great as well. I carry 230 hardball in my .45s nearly all the time.

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